gloriana ([info]gloriana) wrote,
@ 2002-12-17 13:54:00
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The moral choice of slash
I've been a very bad girl today, and instead of doing the mound of work awaiting me, I've written something for the debate currently going on on fcal, about whether slashers ought to pay attention to the objections of authors to litslash, in a way they would not pay attention to the objections of film/tv directors to mediaslash.

In fact, I think this question is the same that lies behind the RPS debate, so I'm posting a slightly amended version of it here. I almost certainly won't be able to answer any comments, given my timetable for the next x weeks, but it seemed a good moment. The examples, by the way, are those that came up in the conversation on fcal, rather than necessarily fandoms I'm active in.

To start with, what do I think of RPS? I'm not going into detail here, but actually, I'm agnostic: I don't think strongly about it either way. Some of the little I've read has been so extreme and unbelievable that it's hard to see how it differs from normal slash: those are definitely fictional characters! I don't see the point in the boyband stuff, either, except to the degree that that it explores fanonical characters, which is what a lot of what FPS does anyway, with no regard to canon whatsoever. But some of the more 'real' stuff - in particular the stuff which you could imagine having happened, like Baz/Ewan - does get my skin crawling a little.

Yet I find it hard to object to RPS per se. Not because I think it won't upset the actors: I'm pretty sure it will! But, see, I think slash in general upsets them, too, and the amount of 'upset' will differ with each actor, and probably with different characters they've played and how strongly they identified with them. There are all sorts of cute justifications for slash, but I think they tend to ignore that one fact: that the actors may well be deeply upset by the concept of slash itself. RPS is therefore little worse than FPS, and how much worse depends on a variable no writer can fully control. One actor might be deeply upset by what most slashers would think of as a mild story, whereas another might be amused by something much more explicit or hard-edged, or much closer to their own identities. Who are we to say?

Moving over to litslash, now. The argument being debated on fcal is that litslash is somehow different from mediaslash, and possibly subject to different rules, especially in regards to accepting author objections to publishing it. I find a lot of the justifications being proposed for ringing litslash into a little coralle of its own to be irrational, though the feelings behind wanting to do so are genuine. To paraphrase, they seem to be dividing into three categories:

  • that the author will lose financially. This has pretty much been debunked in the conversation so far, since most people into litslash express a great willingness to buy the original fic if the author maintains the quality of output, and to abandon it if they don't, whether or not fanfic is available. Examples cited were that Harry Potter 5 was a must-buy, but Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles had gone so far downhill that even if all slash were expunged from the world, a new VC novel would not bring a rush to the tills. I'm sure J K Rowling is sighing in relief.

  • competition within one medium: that it is worse to create slash within the same medium as the original work, which I personally think is an artificial distinction unless it has some sort of financial impact, as above. This is discussed a little below, as well, but on to

  • ownership rights: that, because books are the creation of one individual, that one individual has more right to be upset by slash, and more to be upset about, than the hordes who create a media work do.

I've considered this a lot from the other side, mainly from the point of view of the actors in a media work. How much can they be said to 'own' their characters? Who owns media characters, if anyone, and who has a right to be upset by 'misuse' of those characters (characters being the core of slash)?

I would narrow down the creators of media characters to four or maybe six individuals: the writer, the director, the film editor, the actor, and on occasion, the costumer (since clothes and hair define a man) and the stunt coordinator (if the way he does that lovely little spin through the air is what gets you going, though how much that defines character is a bit more open to debate).

In a tv show, writer, director and editor can all shift constantly, and it might fall to the actor and the producer to maintain some continuity. In a film, there is much more of a single guiding vision. To take an extreme example, in TPM Lucas wrote, directed and edited it, had final say on casting and much else: if he isn't a creator, who is? So a short list of director, actor and writer, then. But there being more than one 'creator' doesn't make the problem less; in fact, it intensifies it, because any one of these three main creators can object to slash.

Majority vote needed, or what?

To move back to the second point about the medium, now. If the argument goes that mediaslash is in a different medium from the original works it slashes, tv or film, and thus is 'allowed' where litslash, being in the same medium as the original work, is not, does that mean therefore that directors have the right, say, to object to slash songvids, or the gen film-making that goes on, but not to written slash? Or, to turn it on its head somewhat, that a writer would not have the right to object to slash based around the film rather than around the book, as much of the LotR fanfic is?

I honestly think this is splitting hairs, and worse still, is an excuse to ignore the legitimacy of the feelings of all these creators - which is something slashers are rather prone to. As a group (and making gross generalisations here) we do tend to underplay how much the individuals involved in the creative process of film, tv and books might sincerely dislike slash in all its forms. And yes, sometimes this is because they are bigotted - as I'm sure J R R Tolkien must have been, given his religion, his age and the period he grew up in. (That certainly doesn't make his feelings less; no doubt if he were alive now, he would dislike slash intensely, not least because of the promiscuity of the characters, as much as because of their homosexuality.)

Sometimes it's just because they believe that thing belongs to them, and that they have a final say in what happens with their universe.

This is a subject where my feelings are at war with my reason. In purely emotional terms, I won't slash Tolkien, partly because it would be like dragging out into the open something that I do believe is there in the books, but which would have scandalised and upset him deeply if he thought other people saw it there. I will slash Lucas, because I don't think he's half as shocked as Tolkien would be, and I think he's probably come to terms with the shift in social acceptance of homosexuality over the last 25 years since the fuss over SW slash, in a way that Tolkien would never have done, even if he'd been alive now.

My reason says: there is no hard line that can be drawn here, just as there is little reason to believe that actors mighht not be just as pissed off by slash in general as they might be by RPS, and we're fooling ourselves to think otherwise. My activities are going to hurt people whom I admire: the people who created these great characters for me to play with. And I don't care to ignore this fact by drawing some arbitrary distinctions between genres or media or number of creators, or whatever.

Perhaps that's why people are happier slashing dead authors' books? So as not to face this moral choice? But to deny that the same moral choice exists for film and tv slash is, IMHO (and let me write that in very large caps, because a lot of people won't agree, and I'm not here to impose my 'morality' on anyone else), putting your head in the sand.

But. I'm still a slasher. Is that selfish, or what?


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[info]raina_at
2002-12-17 08:57 am UTC (link)
I sincerely hope (and believe in Ewan McGregor's case) that most actors don't care if their characters are slashed, because in a way it's a huge compliment. I don't think there would be half as much TPM slash if it wasn't for the sheer devourability and charisma of Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson, so I think they'd take it as a compliment. (Besides, if you do films like Velvet Goldmine, I'm sure you've got no objections to slash.)
Anyway, I can only hope they don't have a problem with it, but I think if you do a film like Star Wars, you should be aware of the fact that it's gonna happen.
Personally, I don't care of GL approves or not, if he did a better job with Canon, we wouldn't be writing.
I would mind if I thought Liam Neeson or Ewan McGregor minded what is written about the character, but I honestly don't think they do.
Maybe it's hypocritical, but I do have issues with RPS. It's different whether you slash an actual person or only a character the person has portrayed. Ewan McGregor said as much himself. What he does on screen is "public property", what he does off-screen is nobody's business. So here you go.
On the issue of Litslash versus mediaslash I am with you 100%, though.
*hugs*
Ranting Raina ;-)

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[info]gloriana
2002-12-17 10:06 am UTC (link)
Meep, got my initials wrong! Will edit post above for this. But to answer you while I still have a moment,

I sincerely hope (and believe in Ewan McGregor's case) that most actors don't care if their characters are slashed, because in a way it's a huge compliment.

Frankly? I think many of them do, though we as slashers would prefer to think otherwise.

In the specific case of TPM...

On sheer guesswork, I would say that Ewan would be amused by TPM slash, if somewhat condescending, and that Liam would be downright annoyed by it, and possibly insulted. He's Catholic, he's not so young that he automatically thinks homosexuality is fun, or even acceptable, and he's shown very little sympathy for the whole 'sex god idolatry' business that Ewan obviously enjoys.

I think if you do a film like Star Wars, you should be aware of the fact that it's gonna happen.

I'd argue the opposite. SW has long been seen as mainly aimed at a younger audience, and Lucas has been ruthless in maintaining its PG credentials. Before TPM came out, the amount of slash around was minute compared to, say, Trek.

Then again, three grown men ought to have had some idea of what having Mr McGregor stare up at Mr Neeson and call him Master might bring to pass :)

Personally, I don't care of GL approves or not, if he did a better job with Canon, we wouldn't be writing.

Laughs - well, I can't agree with that statement, but I'm certainly not going to tackle that one just now!

On the RPS thing, I'm very aware that my view on it is not likely to be shared by anyone else. People get very polarised on the issue - though I would say there are likely to be quite a few more people like me, who don't feel strongly either way than you usually hear about, simply because those without strong views tend to stay silent in such debates. However, it seems to me that those slashers who are anti-RPS think the actors/singers/what have you will feel very strongly about it where they wouldn't about FPS. Contrarily, those in favour of RPS think the actors etc would tolerate it, or even be flattered, as you seem to think actors are over FPS.

My view is at right angles to both these: I think that many actors etc dislike both FPS and RPS and do so on a continuum which is individual to each actor and cannot be guessed at by the slasher.

But I would say, that if ever there was an actor who might tolerate RPS, it would be Ewan.

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Re:
[info]raina_at
2002-12-17 10:29 am UTC (link)
On the issue of RPS: from a role-player's point of view, which isn't the same thing as an actor but remotely similar, I wouldn't mind if people wrote about a character I played, but I would mind very much if they wrote about me. Maybe that's just me.
Anyway, you do have some very good points, though as a slasher I avoid to dwell on the issues created by that particular debate, for if I really believed that Liam Neeson minds what I write about Qui-Gon Jinn, I think I just might stop and I don't want to.

And I think Ewan would draw the line at RPS.
my cents.
Raina

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[info]darththalia
2002-12-17 12:08 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure I agree with how you're positioning this argument, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do a good job of explaining why.

You're asking whether the creators'--whoever you want to define them as--opinion of slash matters. I say it doesn't, whether we're talking media slash or litslash. I tend to assume that any actors, writers, producers, whatever would be opposed to slash. Homosexuality is still, by many people, perceived to be a step down from heterosexuality, and I think a lot of creators would consider it an insult to their characters to make them gay. (Not that I agree, but I think it's still largely the perception.) So, to me, the creators' opinion just doesn't matter. I do think slash should be kept out of their faces, and I get very, very nervous when articles about slash appear in mainstream publications. But I don't think this should stop anyone from writing.

That said, I can understand why multi-fandom archives might not want to archive stories based on authors who have specifically said they disapprove of fanfic, and I think it's the archivists' right to make decisions like that. If I were in a fandom like this, I wouldn't stop reading (or writing, if I were capable of it), but I'd try to keep it very quiet.

Even in litslash, though, the fanfic is about characters, not people. No matter how closely an author identifies with her characters, they aren't her. RPS bothers me because it's about real people, not characters, and in that case I do think their opinion matters. Even though they'll probably never see it, reading it makes me squeamish.

Of course, my attitude toward RPS is colored by the fact that I'm just not into celebrities in general; it's the characters I find interesting. I honestly don't understand why anyone would want to write about Ewan McGregor instead of Obi-Wan or Curt. But that's just me.

And while I'm disclaiming, even though I don't read RPS and have some moral qualms about it, I'm not saying that people who write it are in any way "bad." They have different opinions than me, and that's fine. I'm not saying anyone needs to start writing it, just that I'm not comfortable with it.

And to answer your last question, Gloriana, yes, sometimes I think slash is selfish. And sometimes I think it's a rotten thing to do to the above-mentioned creators. But mostly I think it's worth it.

I hope that all makes sense. Thanks for an interesting post.

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[info]sssenza
2005-03-27 08:26 pm UTC (link)
I'm not into RPS, but if I were I wouldn't care if it upset the actors anymore than I care that my male friends get upset when I tell them I had a dream in which they committed homosexual acts with each other.

And consider Saturday Night Live, which constantly does sketches depicting celebrities in negative (and usually false) situations. They did a sketch where Eminimen and Elton John do their famous performance together, then hug, then start making out. Don't tell me that's not the film version of RPS.

They know many of the celebrities they make fun of don't like it. They do it anyway.

Hey, I wonder if, from a legal standpoint, RPS is more acceptable than FPS?

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[info]gloriana
2005-03-27 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Well, that just shows you that lj posts never die - having you come into this discussion three years on, Ssenza :)

I think there's a lot of difference between having a dream and telling a story: the latter is a very deliberate act, the former can be blamed on everything from buried psychosexual desires to eating curry before bedtime :)

But it does matter to me that the actors, directors and other creators would be upset by what I do (and the argument I made above is that this is true of FPS, as well as RPS, which I don't do). I respect these people. I respect the wonderful stimulants to my imagination that they feed me. I respect their artistry. At the very least, I respect the fact that they are human beings, and deserve to be treated as such.

But it still doesn't stop me slashing. Slash...counts as an overriding need on my part, I find.

I fear I'm going to pass over your comment about Saturday Night Live, because I couldn't give a toss about what SNL chooses to make fun of, or not. I don't think many slashers are trying to mock or make fun, anyway; and as to whether what we do is more personal than what paid satirists do... Again, that's probaby a decision as individual as each actor, or each creator. But what I'm discussing here is my own personal morality, or your own personal morality, not what SNL makes the societal norm to be.

From a legal standpoint, and this is quoting the information given in British slash circles by a lawyer who specialises in libel and slander, uh uh. RPS is far more likely to lead to legal action (on the basis of libel), v FPS legal action (on the basis of copyright violation), because of the hurt feelings of the actor. Though notably there has been virtually none of either form of legal action, so who knows what the final verdict would be?

Coming back to this debate three years on, though, my views on RPS have solidified a bit. I still think that it lies on a spectrum with FPS, rather than being a different sort of thing altogether. I think it's morally more objectionable, because it invades the privacy of a real, living, breathing person; but I think the creators of a non-real character also have a right to be upset when their characters are taken and used by others - although I have no intention of stopping that usage myself.

But there's another problem with RPS, I've decided: for me, it fails on fictional grounds.

It doesn't work as fanfiction, because it has no canon to reference. (I was tempted to make an exception here for the Japanese boybands who would appear to stage slashable moments, but I won't: none of these even slightly approaches the intimacy we share with the characters in canon. We share with Obi-Wan the moment when Qui-Gon dies in his arms. RPS canon seems appallingly shallow in comparison.)

Yet it doesn't work as original fiction (which I think it resembles more closely) because it relies on the tricks of fanfiction: the shorthand that our familiarity with the milieu or the protagonists or the clashes between them allows us to use when writing, in place of building characters from scratch, or engaging reader sympathy for our writing or for our creations.

Worst of all - for me - it continually breaks suspension of disbelief. Either I am faced with an OC - and why the hell should I care about an OC, unless the author is good enough to make me (and few are) - or I am faced with an actor I know. Yet half the things that actor is portrayed as doing (ignoring his wife, butt-fucking his co-actors) is completely against anything I know of the actor. The details that make the character more real - the ones culled from his real life - serve to make me more and more uncomfortable about reading the story. Yet without those details, the character is utterly flat and cardboard.

So for me RPS is a genre doomed by its own internal contradictions.

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